GEOFF BENNETT: We're shifting our focus now back# to the latest news in the Israel-Hamas war.

The## Israeli Cabinet is in a marathon session# still meeting after 1:00 a.m. local time## debating whether or not to completely# reoccupy the Gaza Strip militarily.

For perspective on this, we get two views, David# Makovsky, the director of the Washington Institute## for Near East Policy's Project on Arab-Israel# Relations.

And Yousef Munayyer is the head## of the Palestine/Israel Program and senior# fellow at the Arab Center in Washington, D.C.

Thank you both for being with us.

David, I will start with you.

Do you see this notion of Israel completely# re.. military strategy, or is this a political# tactic to pressure Hamas into cease-fire talks?

DAVID MAKOVSKY, Senior Fellow, Washington# Institute for Near East Policy: We don't## know for sure.

I thi.. if you look at all the news reporting, it's# been kind of scaled down in the last 24 hours.

Instead of this idea of a blitz through the# -- these remaining cities that were going for## five months, they're now talking about dropping# leaflets and then maybe encircling the city and## then doing raids in and out.

But there's clearly# differences between the prime minister and the## chief of staff.

The military chief of staff of the# IDF wants to go slower and does not want to go in.

He's worried the hostages will die.

He's# worried soldiers will get killed.

He's worried## that innocent people in Gaza will be killed.# So -- but I think the prime minister has set## out such an ambitious goal that you wonder# that what could start as a political ploy,## if it doesn't go the way he wants to# pressure Hamas to come back to the table,## might have a dynamic of its# own.

We just don't know yet.

GEOFF BENNETT: Yousef, how do you see it?

And when# Israeli officials talk about a full occupation,## what exactly does that mean on# the ground in practical terms?

YOUSEF MUNAYYER, Arab Center# Washington, D.C.: Right.

I think it's important to understand that ri.. in its entirety, but on the ground it controls# something like 75 to 80 percent of the territory.## And over the course of its operations, it has# increasingly pushed the civilian population in## Gaza into these concentrated areas now,# which make up a tiny space of the land.

So what they're considering now, what# they're talking about is actually the## military going into those spaces.

And as# we witnessed over the last couple of years,## credible accusations of war crimes# and mass atrocities throughout the## course of these campaigns, this would# foreshadow the bloodiest stage of the## campaign yet against the population in Gaza# if the military was to go in to these densely,## densely populated areas, because that's all that# is left that the population has to retreat to.

So if they do in fact go ahead with this, it# would be, as I said, a bloody, bloody moment## at a time where there is global outrage over# this war that has already reached a fever pitch.

GEOFF BENNETT: And, David, if the# Netanyahu government's actions## are aimed at pressuring Hamas to make# concessions at the negotiating table,## what have been the major sticking# points in the talks so far?

A few weeks ago, there were reports# that the two sides were close to a deal.## What happened and what would need to change now?

DAVID MAKOVSKY: Yes, no, really good# questions.

And I agree with Yousef that,## if there would be fighting in densely# urban areas, it becomes very bloody.

And that's why the IDF chief of staff does not# want that and would like Israel to stay outside of## the cities.

But I think there was a feeling that# you were getting close under the Steve Witkoff,## President Trump's envoy's formula# of half the hostages getting out in## return for a certain ratio of lifetime# prisoners of Hamas being released.

And let's remember that Yahya Sinwar, the# mastermind of October 7, was released in## a very lopsided deal in -- with Gilad Shalit in# 2011.

But still there was a feeling, OK, they're## moving towards each other.

And then it seemed that# Hamas hardened their position and said, no, we're## not doing this deal the way we said, we will not# disarm until after we have a state in Jerusalem.

And this is coming at the very time# that the Arab states, the Arab League,## and for the first time really# called out Hamas publicly and said,## they have to disarm and they cannot govern# Gaza.

It should be the Palestinian Authority.

And so I think this was an important# breakthrough.

I didn't think it got## a lot of attention here because of the tariffs# maybe or other issues, but that the Arab states## were publicly calling out Hamas, saying# they shouldn't rule Gaza, is an important## moment.

And I think it was moving towards each# other, and then Hamas hardened their position.

The prime minister -- I know from people who've# talked to the prime minister said that he feels## they hardened their position because of# this conference of Macron, of France,## or whatever.

It doesn't matter.

But the point# is, is that he's under a lot of pressure now And you had that relative of Evyatar# David on the show the other day,## and with the pictures of him looking like he came# out of Auschwitz or something from the Holocaust,## and the public wants these hostages# home.

So he's feeling a lot of heat,## and he just said, well, the negotiations aren't# working.

We have got to try something new.

But you have got to be careful,# what is the alternative to that too?

GEOFF BENNETT: And, Yousef, how should# we understand Hamas' staying power after## nearly two years of war, widespread# destruction, so on and so forth?

YOUSEF MUNAYYER: Well, I think the primary# issue has been that -- in these negotiations,## that the Palestinians have wanted to# see an end to this war.

And there has## been a cease-fire in place.

That# was the case in early January.

But it was something that the Israeli government# decided to back out of because they believed they## could increase pressure on the Palestinians, and# Hamas, in particular, and try to get a better set## of terms.

That didn't materialize, despite all# of the pressure that we have seen, the massive## Israeli military operation that expanded its# control to some 75 to 80 percent of the territory,## the deliberate starvation campaign that has# made headlines around the world in recent weeks.

That has failed to create change at the# negotiating table.

And I think one thing that the## Israeli public is increasingly understanding is,# of all of the hostages that have been released,## the vast majority of them have been released# in negotiations, and not by military force.

I think the key problem right now is that# what people are realizing is that the goals## set forth by the Israeli government in# this war, these three different goals,## they're beginning to militate against each# other as push comes to shove on the ground.

And## Netanyahu is looking for answers from the military# that they simply cannot provide right now.

And he's looking at an Israeli public# who wants an end to this as well,## but a Cabinet and a government who is not# really letting him back away from this.## So he may very well walk himself into# even greater horrors in Gaza because he## doesn't seem to have a clear vision and# doesn't seem to have a clear strategy,## other than continuing to use the blunt# force of the military against Palestinians.

GEOFF BENNETT: In the time that remains,## let's talk about the U.S. role.

What role does# the .. President Trump is sending mixed signals.# The Biden administration largely deferred to## Israel's approach.

Is meaningful American# pressure even on the table right now?

DAVID MAKOVSKY: No, I think that# you're raising an important point.

And I actually think the interview that Netanyahu# gave today, he doesn't talk to the Israeli media,## but he talks to the American media.# Today, it was FOX News.

But it was the## most explicit he's come in saying# that this is like -- basically,## this -- Gaza's going to be given over to# other Arabs.

It can't be run by Hamas.

And I would hold him to it.

And now that you have# that Arab statement that I was referring to from## last week calling out Hamas, saying they can't# govern, I would hope us in Washington, that the## United States would come to Netanyahu and say, OK,# you said that it's going to be other Arabs taking## over; 74 percent of Israelis, including 60 percent# of your own supporters in the last Channel 12 --## that's like the leading TV -- in last Friday poll# would rather get the hostages out and end the war.

So let's think about, how do we make that segue,# that other Arabs can do that and do it in a way## that Hamas is not left holding guns?

Because, in# the Middle East, the people who fire the shots## call the shots.

But if the Arabs are willing# to take this area over, I would hope the United## States would work with Israel here and the Arabs# in making that transition, because Netanyahu was## saying, it's not going to be annexed by Israel,# even though the hard right wants him to do that.

But he has not done that.

GEOFF BENNETT: Yousef, in the 45# seconds we have left, what's your view?

YOUSEF MUNAYYER: Look, at the end of# the day, Gaza is occupied by Israel.## The population there is Israel's responsibility.# They have completely destroyed the area in Gaza.

Why Netanyahu thinks he can pass off that# issue to any other country, Arab or otherwise,## is beyond me.

He's writing checks at this point# that he simply can't cash.

And, unfortunately,## Washington is allowing him to meander down this# very, very destructive road with no way out.

GEOFF BENNETT: Yousef Munayyer and# David Makovsky, our thanks to you both.