JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let's talk about delivery systems because you spend a lot of time thinking about this and we're doing this on linear T.V.

KARA SWISHER: Right, right.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Though you can see us on YouTube and everywhere else.

Are there journalism values of PBS, "The New York Times," "The Atlantic," "CBS," et cetera, et cetera, "AP," "Reuters."

Are these transferable to the platforms that you're very comfortable with?

KARA SWISHER: Yes.

Absolutely.

We're growing like crazy.

Like, I don't -- I think we -- I do hour long interviews.

I just did one on Iran this morning.

Like we do substantive things.

It's -- the issue is understanding the product you're making.

Like journalists don't like to think of it like that, but it's the news business, right?

You have to make money at it.

And so you have to figure out should you make money through advertising?

Should you do subscription?

Should you make do merchandise?

Should you do events?

So one of the things I did when I started is I had an event business.

I had advertising.

I had like we were looking for lots of different revenue streams.

KARA SWISHER: It just you have to figure out what the right one is.

The other thing is the idea that young people only want tiny little silly things is not true.

They watch substantively, but it just depends on where they're watching.

And like PBS is a really good example.

My son, I was doing a thing for one of the PBS, the big PBS shows.

And my son called me during it.

And I'm like, oh, I'm doing this taping.

And he said, oh, I love that show.

I watch it all the time.

And I was like, oh, oh, you watch PBS.

And he goes, no, I watch YouTube.

What's the difference?

It's -- there's not a difference.

YouTube is television now.

And if you aren't hurtling towards it at this point and someday it won't be.

But if you aren't hurtling towards YouTube right now, you're making an enormous mistake as a media company.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

So for you, quality, attention span, all these issues are platform agnostic when it comes to this.

KARA SWISHER: Correct.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Do you -- I mean, that's the most hopeful thing I've heard in a while, the idea that young people actually have attention span.

KARA SWISHER: They do.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's like what you're suggesting.

They just have attention spans for good things.

KARA SWISHER: They're very discerning media people.

It's just let's make things that they like.

They do pay attention.

They do like longer things.

I think it's just a question of what -- we spent a lot of time on the distribution system.

And when I was at "The Washington Post," I'm like when I started covering AOL, which I was the first reporter to do that, I thought everything that can be digitized will be digitized.

So why are we doing this thing with the paper?

I never understood it.

And when I went to "The Wall Street Journal," we were in one of those meetings and you've been in a hundred of these.

Like, how do we get young people to read the newspaper?

And it's all old people in the room, which is my favorite part.

And I happen to have been a young person at the time.

And I put up my hand and they seldom invited me to meetings.

And I go, well, tape a joint between every page.

I don't know something like that.

And they're like, that's not funny.

I'm like, no, it is.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, that's funny.

KARA SWISHER: That's a good, good idea because they're not reading the print paper.

So give it to them.

If they want to -- if you -- if they want to eat it, put it on salami and give it to them like, what do you care?

And I think that's what has happened.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I would just I wouldn't put a joint in every page because that could run up here.

That could run up your costs a lot.

The -- how do we -- let's talk about A.I.

because another area that you're thinking about all the time.

How do we keep A.I., we're heading to an election, obviously, '28.

KARA SWISHER: Sure.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: How do we keep a fakery from just totally tsunami in our understanding of reality?

KARA SWISHER: I have to say I am -- I pay a lot of attention to A.I.

now.

Look, look at the damage the Internet has done.

Look at the damage.

And this is the Internet on steroids.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, wait, stop.

Just go back to this.

What is the -- define the damage that the Internet has done to the politics?

KARA SWISHER: The ability for malevolent players to screw with people like all the time, like the information flood before.

We used to have an information desert with a lot of people.

We did.

People didn't have a lot of choices.

KARA SWISHER: Maybe a local station.

Now they have a flood.

And so that's just as bad as a desert.

Like either way, it's not a good thing.

And so with A.I., you can really do things.

And on the good part, you could solve cancer maybe.

On the bad part, on an interesting part, you like the West Wing, we're going to make you 10 more episodes, 10 more seasons.

We don't even need to find the actors anymore.

That's kind of cool.

Like -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Explain how that would work.

KARA SWISHER: They would feed the show.

The show has seven, eight seasons, whatever it is you feed it in and you make it again.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

And you tell -- you -- KARA SWISHER: I would like, yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- to tell the A.I.

just go make a new season.

KARA SWISHER: Go make.

And I would like there to be more of this.

I would like this to happen.

KARA SWISHER: There's all kinds of things.

But it could also create all kinds of confusion, especially around video.

That's -- if you initially everyone was like, oh, it's got six fingers or three.

Well, today it does.

But go back and look at early Internet websites.

KARA SWISHER: You know, the biggest, most popular website at the beginning of the Internet was a camera pointed at a coffee pot that was making coffee.

KARA SWISHER: We're way beyond that.

And you couldn't have any.

What you have to do is anticipate what you can't anticipate.

Could you have anticipated when the app store started Uber?

Maybe.

Nobody.

You know -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, somebody did and then they got rich.

Yeah.

KARA SWISHER: Somebody did.

But at the beginning, you didn't.

KARA SWISHER: You didn't know.

And so I can -- you could see all kinds of really interesting media applications for A.I.

You could also see easily dangerous ones.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What would you do to stop the wave, the coming wave of unreality that could affect, look, on the American domestic level, it can affect our politics and maybe violence at the margins?

But we just saw Mountainhead.

I think that's -- KARA SWISHER: Yes.

Mountainhead.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Mountainhead.

You know, what -- KARA SWISHER: Jesse, who was successful.

He also -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yeah, yeah.

I mean, which is great.

And it wasn't as crazy and satirical.

It kind of felt like, oh, this -- these are things that could happen.

You could foment large scale violence by the introduction of fake video.

How does it stop?

How does it not?

KARA SWISHER: Well, one of the great lines in that was like, well, you got something funny like Snoopy with a giant penis.

There was, remember that?

Or you have this.

And what was interesting about that movie is that, there was a guy in it who was the good A.I.

guy, right?

KARA SWISHER: Was he so good?

Because what he said is, what would you feel like if you if information cancer was there and you had the cure?

He was more interested in the money he could make doing it.

And so the question is, should we put -- there's ways to follow this video to make sure it's real.

Should we legislate that?

Should we -- that's the kind of stuff our legislators should be and are not thinking about whatsoever.

But they did know legislation against tech companies.

They let them run rampant across our media.

They let them run rampant across our politics.

And, you know, these are digital arms dealers in a very, very clear way.

And we never did anything about it.

And we're not going to under this administration.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And, you know, these people better than almost any reporter, any sense that they know that they're riding a very wild horse and that they have to get this under control before an election goes sideways?

KARA SWISHER: They don't care.

I wish you would understand that everyone's like, how could they?

I'm like, they don't care.

They're interested in shareholder value.

And you must understand -- I know you're down with the soul thing.

They don't care.

And they don't think they're to blame, by the way.

They think people are to blame.

They think cable is to blame.

The media is to blame.

They are -- they're the biggest blame throwers.

They're just making stuff.

And however people use it, it's sort of the guns don't kill people, people kill people.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, it's like a, it's the drug dealer analogy is if they want to, I mean, I can't control somebody wants drugs.

KARA SWISHER: Of course you can.

KARA SWISHER: Of course you can.

And one of the things is they've never been subject to any regulation.

And the regulation they've been subject to is helpful to them, Section 230.

They can do whatever they want.

And let me tell you, sometimes that leads to great things.

Sometimes it leads to precise.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know, this amazing E.O.

Wilson line, the, you know, the primatology, the evolutionary biologist.

He says that the central challenge of our age is we have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology.

KARA SWISHER: Right.

Exactly.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And so it's -- that's what we're heading into.

KARA SWISHER: But they're also rich.

That is the part you're not figuring in.

These people are -- I'm waiting to -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: They fund your technology.

KARA SWISHER: Right.

It's -- they have now power -- they were not interested in Washington.

I had Bill Gates to "The Washington Post" once and he's like, oh, Washington, like he used to be like that.

I don't have a lobbyist here.

He was in front of Mrs. Graham, the rest in those lunches they used to have upstairs.

KARA SWISHER: I don't care about Washington.

They care about Washington, which is why they're here buying, you know, the coin operated president.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

The -- there's so much to talk about.

We have time for one more question.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's a little bit of an impossible one, but try anyway.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Ten years from now, how do you think we're going to be getting our information?

Obviously, Washington Week and The Atlantic and your podcasts, but put those aside.

KARA SWISHER: Now I'll be dead probably.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Put that -- you're not going to be dead.

You're very healthy.

KARA SWISHER: I'll be old and -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're all going to be older.

KARA SWISHER: Right.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: How are we getting information?

KARA SWISHER: You know, I do think there's a real business for good information and really good reporting.

I don't think that ever changes.

I really don't.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's the interesting about Substack, by the way.

KARA SWISHER: Right.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Not a lot of reporting on.

KARA SWISHER: No, there's not.

But there's interesting insight into part.

But that doesn't mean you can't still make a business.

You know, to me, you run toward where people have a need and they have a need for great and good information.

And I think that doesn't change.

What they -- you do have to understand is the delivery.

You're going to get everything in your eyes.

There's going to be -- you're going to be wearing things.

They're not going to look like what they -- they're a little heavy right now.

But everything will be -- if you see one movie, watch "Minority Report."

That was writ -- that was done.

They had consultants that I think were brilliant in terms of where things were going.

Everything will be monitored, surveilled.

They'll know when you walk in.

They'll know what you want.

And that's -- that to me.

And so make good products rather than bad ones.

They'll sell just as well.

But the bad products will also, just like Twinkies do.

Be very popular.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're going to have to leave it there for now.

Your assignment at home is to watch "Minority Report."

I want to thank you all for watching.

I want to thank Kara for joining us.